Devil finds work for idle hands

Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:09 pm

The first tyre picture jet posted is a 30x7x15" Mickey Thomson Baja Pro.
In my opinion the absolute way to go for low weight, perfect size, nice & narrow & directional tread.
They are also a soft compound.
Darryl who we are building one of the CAMS race buggies for ran these on his standard Cuda & it went real well.
I have a couple of sets of these mounted on 15x6" rims in the showroom & they are much more narrow than that photo.
And on the BTR 15x4" rims they are just about ideal.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:40 pm

Jet wrote:I was using the tires as extreme examples really.Fair enough.

Brakes would be improved running those tires backwards for sure. but I'm not sure about steering, there doesn't seem to be much edge left to push against?
Then again, running those tires forwards wouldn't produce much either, Hence why there are a traction tire and work well for brakes.
however A directional tire would be more beneficial for steering i believe. I wouldn't have thought they could get any more directional????

As for backwards or forwards, that's what this discussion is about.
To my way of thinking, the fronts pulling up or turning is the same as the drive tyres pushing/propelling the buggy forward. Therefore the little arrow on the side of the tyre points opposite to the rears.
(sorry Fingers for the hijack, I'm sure you'll chime in soon...any time now).
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:49 pm

reason i pointed it out in the start, was that your trying to get more lock to lock, when maybe all you needed to do was change your front tyres for steering,

now i not sure if you want lock to lock for sideways action, or trying to make it turn better?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Jet » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:00 pm

Fair Call! I agree, There is no Acceleration on the Front, only Deceleration.

Directional Tread in meaning the tread favors steering (sideways bite) rather than Acceleration and deceleration. (Traction Tire)

The Baja pro is a good example of a directional or "steering" Tyre.

from what i understand the term directional now means the contact pattern is different weather it is backwards or forwards.
So I'll use to term "steering Tire" ?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:20 pm

Jet wrote:from what i understand the term directional now means the contact pattern is different weather it is backwards or forwards.

That's pretty much how understand it.
spoiltone wrote:reason i pointed it out in the start, was that your trying to get more lock to lock, when maybe all you needed to do was change your front tyres for steering,

now i not sure if you want lock to lock for sideways action, or trying to make it turn better?

If you could have better lock, would you?
If you could have better steering, would you?
If it all resulted in better turning, would you?
How far would you go to get it?
As for your original question, is the tyre on backwards, I don't believe so for the reasons I have said above. A lot of people will disagree. Nothing surer though, I would run them the same way as Fingers.....(any time now Fingers)
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:52 pm

lol ok fair enought, just asking a question. well there you go i learnt something, turn it around for better braking..
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:12 pm

FARK ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tyre's are run backward's to vastly improve braking ! We race mainly on hard packed or firm surfaces so you want to get the loose stuff out of the way as quick as you can . a wheeel that is not rotating and sliding is also useles for steering !
a directional tyre in MY opinion is next to useless and wasted on a barracuda as most of the cornering is done side ways due to the locked rear , and as for directional tyres under braking . , well you might as well put front brakes on a snow mobile .
The extra lock is not to improve steering into a corner it there for better control out of the corner and the ability to get the buggy back when you over cook it instead of having to do a complete loop .
Its working great for me and my style of driving nough said .
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:44 pm

a directional tyre in MY opinion is next to useless and wasted on a barracuda as most of the cornering is done side ways due to the locked rear



When you are sideways in an opposite lock power slide you are steering, this is the very reason you are trying to gain more steering lock, so you can control the steering in a corner better & not end up spinning out.
This means you are VERY MUCH relying on steering control by the tyres & the tyre design.
If your tyres do not bite in a corner then you understeer & exit the outside of the track.

Directional tyres are fantastic.
But as I said earlier, there is more to the equation than just tyres.
The whole set up must be tuned to suit the buggies weight balance, tyres, shocks & the actual drivers style.

I agree with Jet that there has to be a compromise between braking & cornering with the front tyres & much of this can be acheived with setup as well as tyre design.
Its a complete package, remove one thing from the equation, (such as Castor) & the rest of the functions cease to work correctly.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:35 pm

Their steering but there is next to no sideways force on them when you are going sideways , they are purely pointing in the direction you are travelling .
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:20 pm

Directional Tread Design — A tire designed to rotate in only one direction for maximum performance, especially on wet roads or in mud.

Non-Directional Tread Design — A tire designed to rotate in either direction without loss in performance.
Tony wrote:The first tyre picture jet posted is a 30x7x15" Mickey Thomson Baja Pro.
In my opinion the absolute way to go for low weight, perfect size, nice & narrow & directional tread.

Don't think those Mickey T's are directional Tony...You can run them either way without affecting their performance.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:44 pm

By directional I mean the tread is lengthways to tyre.
Not which way around you install it.
That is the common language in offroad in reference to directional front tyres, a tyre that has tread or grooves running lengthways as opposed to across the contact patch.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:48 pm

So what would you call a tread pattern like the bear claw ?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:34 pm

I know what you are saying.
In the offroad industry a front directional tyre is a tread going in the forward direction.
Its just the way the terms have evolved.
I'm looking at Pirelli P Zero's for my car at the moment & they are directional as well as a left & right tyre, but that has different meaning.
We both know what each other are talking about, is that not enough?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:56 pm

Tony wrote:We both know what each other are talking about,

We do now.....But it makes it hard when we're using the same terminology fore two completely different things.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:03 am

How bout these uprights, they look promising.
finggers wrote:Image
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:22 am

kenrox wrote:how about directional asymmetric designs like the pirelli snow-j tire.
i think something like this would really help. (if there's any availabe for light weight off-road vehicles)

Image
Image

http://www.pirellityre.com/web/motorspo ... now_j.page

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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:29 pm

penguins are to hard to train and have real pissy attitude :mrgreen:
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Jet » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:39 pm

Kenrox, I have a set of rally tires with grip similar to that. Bear-claw kill's them in a straight line.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:29 pm

I do like Ian’s uprights.
As you say, any improvement has got to be a good thing.
The only comment is the rod ends mounted horizontal & not vertical & the top rod end in single shear.
Yes I know other manufacturers design their buggies this way but it does not sit well with me.
On a lightweight buggy you likely will get away with it.

Each time the wheel hits a bump the forces are transferred first through the rod end, then through the arm & transferred to the shock.
So the rod end is under enormous load, which is obviously relative to the vehicles weight, inertia & shock settings.
A rod ends liner can not take nearly as much load horizontally as it can vertically.

Having said all that, even though the top rod end is in single shear, the reality is the top suspension arm sees very little load.
So it’s really just the bottom rod end that is receiving the forces.
Just keep an eye on it & make sure it does not become sloppy.
Even if the lower rod end does punch out the liner at least the bolt will keep it all together & prevent a crash.
I would like some feedback Ian on how long the lower rod end lasts.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:51 pm

[quote="Tony"]I do like Ian’s uprights.quote]
:shock: :shock: :shock: WTF Never saw that one coming :lol:
I'll Let you know as soon as they fail .
be a little hard to judge though as been running them from new for about two years now :?
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