Devil finds work for idle hands

Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby finggers » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:41 pm

Been in the shed the last couple of days looking for a bit more steering lock out the old girl
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Also on her third set of tyres . tried BKT wings . they were a real grippy tyre but wore out in about four race meetings . so being as the bear claws did me nearly 12 months i've gone back to them . thought i had better look after them so invested in a pair of bead lock kits
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby matt(boily) » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:48 am

Where did you get the beadlock kit from. Looks like they work well.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby flatout off road » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:35 pm

matt(boily) wrote:Where did you get the beadlock kit from. Looks like they work well.

Keyword is looks like hey Ian :lol:
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:06 am

them front rims look like they on backwards? well the tyres anyway? might be wrong,
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:29 am

spoiltone wrote:them front rims look like they on backwards? well the tyres anyway? might be wrong,

Not on backwards, just different to almost every one else.
I will be running mine the same. The way I see it is, looking at where the tyre makes contact with the ground, the tread pattern clears debris away from the contact patch during braking and cornering. Same as the drive tyres do when driving, remembering they do their jobs working in opossite directions. It makes no sense to me to have the tyre drag fines into the contact area of the tread.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:45 am

fair enough, i just thought you would want a directionaly tyre on the front. no problem..
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:02 pm

That's what I'm getting at Spoiltone.
Drive direction on the rear is to push, as they push they clear the dirt away from the contact patch for grip.
The fronts job is opposite, they need to do the same job under braking or steering.
That's the directional application of the tyre.

I've just found this which might explain my thoughts better, although it is in relation to mountain bikes...
http://two-wheels.michelin.com/2w/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8092004154751&codePage=8092004154751_03022006113300&lang=EN
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Jet » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:17 pm

Orge,

having an aggressive front is great for braking, and correct, they perform better under brakes when switched direction, but this tread pattern doesn't help steering much at all, it does not create a sideways edge, but rather a braking edge.
Everything is a compromise unfortunately.

Having said that, I would run the same front as they steering okay with them, and it creates an advantage under brakes!

Cheers
Phil
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:47 pm

Jet wrote:this tread pattern doesn't help steering much at all,

Take a close look at the tread pattern on this. Front V's rear...why do you think they would do it like that? When it comes to front tyres sledging while turning they don't come much worse than these machines. They have an incredible tendancy to "push straight through" corners, and thats without loading it up under working conditions.
And if they are put on in the "drive" direction they become almost impossible to turn. I had to operate one like it because "it didn't look right". People tend to be confused because they see the top of the wheel, not the contact point.
My opinion is that Fingers has got it right, and it's only an opinion.
http://www.digrite.com.au/new_machines_noram.htm
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:25 pm

I would disagree with tread patterns not being an issue on the front.
Directional front tread, (as in the tread going lengthways around the tyre) is much better for steering.
A tread pattern that goes from side to side across the tyre will not steer in as well.
But there are so many other things to take into consideration.
Castor angle.
Front to rear weight bias.
Front track verses rear track.
Rear tyre tread type.
Kingpin offset
Front shock stiffness, (a softer front tends to steer better than hard).


A common fallacy is the amount of steering lock to turn a buggy through a corner.
With a locked rear you WILL NOT turn sharper through a corner by having more lock.
The more lock you wind on the more the front tends to sledge.
The best way to steer is a small amount of steering/lock & with a dose of power to break rear traction & it will steer very sharply.
More lock is only handy for "opposite lock" situations.

A Barracuda steers much better than a Piranha not only because of its superior front end geometry, but also because the front track is much wider than the rear track.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:39 pm

Tony wrote:A common fallacy is the amount of steering lock to turn a buggy through a corner.
With a locked rear you WILL NOT turn sharper through a corner by having more lock.
The more lock you wind on the more the front tends to sledge.
The best way to steer is a small amount of steering/lock & with a dose of power to break rear traction & it will steer very sharply.
More lock is only handy for "opposite lock" situations.

I agree Tony, these buggies are pigs to turn with locked rear ends.
Hence the reason for people fitting diffs or trying to get better grip on the steerers in a turn and more lock in opposite lock. Why not get what you can out of them?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:16 pm

yeah i see your point, i was only reffering to steering. not braking etc etc..
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby spoiltone » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:19 pm

V8 Ogre wrote:
Jet wrote:this tread pattern doesn't help steering much at all,

Take a close look at the tread pattern on this. Front V's rear...why do you think they would do it like that? When it comes to front tyres sledging while turning they don't come much worse than these machines. They have an incredible tendancy to "push straight through" corners, and thats without loading it up under working conditions.
And if they are put on in the "drive" direction they become almost impossible to turn. I had to operate one like it because "it didn't look right". People tend to be confused because they see the top of the wheel, not the contact point.
My opinion is that Fingers has got it right, and it's only an opinion.
http://www.digrite.com.au/new_machines_noram.htm



dont forget that these machine artic in centre, which actually gives more sterring then just turning them, i know i work on them day in and out.

most graders do anyway, have yet to see one that dont, that grader your looking at the phil, is probaly a 6 wheel dive, one so traction is a big thing, more so then steering due, to graders generaly do straight lines.. especially with rippers on the front like that
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:29 pm

spoiltone wrote: dont forget that these machine artic in centre, which actually gives more sterring then just turning them, i know i work on them day in and out.

Not forgotten, but even at full artic they still sledge, just in a smaller circle. I know, I've spent many hrs on them too, operating.
Not that particular breed but Cats, John Deere and Mitsubishi.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:47 pm

Ahhh not always.
They are not pigs to turn if set up right.
A Piranha does not steer as well as a Sidewinder because of the Sidewinders shorter wheelbase.
And A Piranha does not steer as well as a Barracuda because of the wider front track on the Barracuda.
As well as all the other adjustments available on the Barracuda.
I have seen guys struggle with Barracuda steering set up where as others have it right & they steer like a dream.

Talk to Biggans about steering & handling.
He kicks ass in Autocross because he goes to great lengths on front & rear suspension setup.
And he easily beats vehicles with diff’s.
Would he be faster with a diff?
Possibly, he would simply adjust his driving style to suit & maybe gain a few tenths per lap on corner entry.

We used to drive Barracuda's around the street here at Edge & they handle great.
Just don't try it in the wet.

Yes a diff will improve steering.
But that is also to do with driving style.
Don't expect to jump in a buggy with a locked rear & drive it like a car through corners.

Using the rear brake to set up for the corner & the throttle to steer & control the slide out of the corner.
Just the front shocks being softer than the rear makes a massive difference to steering as you really get the front tyres to hook up.
Directional front tyres are much better than non directional.
More Castor improves the steering dramatically, as long as you allow for the heavier steering which is the by-product.

Jet likes the fact that with a diff he can brake later & harder & then drive through the corner.
Where as with a locked rear you brake hard on entry, then focus more on the rear brake to step out the rear while trailing the throttle.
Then gas it out of the corner holding a controlled opposite lock slide.

I once watched Tollie Challis, (Perth Rally driver & rally driving tutor) drive one of our Hypersprints around his replica of the Perth Rally Australia Langley Park circuit.
His comments were that the Hypersprint was quicker in a straight line & quicker around a corner than his Evo.
In fact he was doing better lap times in the Hypersprint.
His only negative was the Hypersprint needed better lock for opposite lock exits.
He was doing the Scandinavian flick into corners & it was impressive to see it performed with so much art & skill.
Driving different vehicles with unique characteristics is a lot to do with technique.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:12 pm

Biggins obviously gets the best out of what he's got, give him better and he'll do the same.....only better.
As for the comments by Tollie Challis, I had similar comments from a very experienced enduro rider at the Tumblegum event. After a few laps he thought he would lap as quick as an 'a' grade rider in my Piranha.
How does the evo stack up against the Hypersprint in power to weight ratio?
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Jet » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:49 pm

Hey Orge,

I don't disagree with the fact that they work better in reverse, In fact im all for it, It makes a lot of sense, Hence why I use it where i can these days.
But im talking about steering, not braking, It's either going to be really good for braking, or really good for steering.

For examples:
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These tires turn amazing. The produce great side grip for turning, but under brakes they are not the best because there's nothing gripping the surface.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have tires such as these
Image

Which are amazing under brake's, but crap in the corners.

I have put both to the test on a race track,
Image

the better grip was Amazing under brake's, Could brake a lot later, But it came at the expense of Steering performance.

Everything is a compromise is all I'm saying.

Regarding the Diff, It comes down to the driving style, Track condition, track type etc, again another compromise, I will most likely be testing many different driveling options and see what works well.

This is half the reason I am converting to use a standard car Diff. I will be able to cheaply test drive line configurations such as Open diff, Locked Diff, ABS locking Diff, VLSD, LSD, ATB LSD etc.
Sure it's heavy, but at the moment we are learning and developing ideas.

I will be working closely with Tony on the effects of vehicle dynamics regarding each configuration.

The time and money put into this kind of research benefits not just myself but Everyone. I'm not interested in keeping secret's to "stay In-front" I would like to think this is an environment where we can all help each other
achieve there goals.
Obviously I try gaining support in return for the Money and Time i put into research So i can continue testing idea's for everyone's benefit.

Unfortunately this come's undone sometimes down the line of people it advantages and the reality of the time money and frustration which we put into research are lost or taken advantage of.

Regarding performance, I did once run against a WRX Sti and blitzed it.

Cheers
Jet
Last edited by Jet on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Tony » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:56 pm

Evo Ten

Production October 2007 - Present
Platform CZ4A
Transmission(s) 6-speed twin-clutch transmission
5-speed manual
Wheelbase 2,650 mm (104 in)
Length 4,495 mm (177.0 in)
Width 1,810 mm (71 in)
Height 1,480 mm (58 in)
Curb weight 1,420–1,600 kg (3,131–3,527 lb)

Looks like the Australian versions are around 300 hp & in the UK they get 405 hp.


So the Australian version Evo at its lightest weight would be 4.7 kg to the hp.
The pommy version Evo at 405 hp & the lightest weight would be 3.5 kg to the hp.

Not sure why the difference in weight?, more electonic junk on board?

A Barracuda with a 2008 Busa, (200 hp & 450 kg) would be 2.25 kg to the hp.
A Barracuda with a 2007 Busa, (176 hp & 450 kg) would be 2.55 kg to the hp.

That particular Hypersprint, (CBR1000) only had 135 hp, but was lighter at 370 kg, which gives it 2.74 kg to the hp.

And a racing CAMS Barracuda?
Estimated 600 kg.
Turbo Busa at a mild 300hp = 2 kg to the hp.
At a dialed up 400 hp & still staying reasonably reliable = 1.5 kg to the hp.

The best of the Class 1 buggies at 1800 kg & 700 hp = 2.5 kg to the hp
But much more body roll, not as good under braking & not as good acceleration due to its excess weight.
And at 1800 kg I'm being kind !!.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby V8 Ogre » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:03 pm

But im talking about steering, not braking

On this type of pattern (directional), I believe from my experience, both braking AND steering will benefit as per Fingers setup.
I can appreciate the test time you've put into those Jet but I'm talking about these.
finggers wrote:Image

Of the 2 types you have posted I would use the first one and wonder why you'd even bother with the second one on the steerers.
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Re: Devil finds work for idle hands

Postby Jet » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:08 pm

I was using the tires as extreme examples really.

Brakes would be improved running those tires backwards for sure. but I'm not sure about steering, there doesn't seem to be much edge left to push against?
Then again, running those tires forwards wouldn't produce much either, Hence why there are a traction tire and work well for brakes.
however A directional tire would be more beneficial for steering i believe.
Last edited by Jet on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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